David Haye, one of the leading lights of the UK boxing scene and current WBA heavyweight champion, has called into question James Toney’s belief that he can make a a successful transition to mixed martial arts.

Toney recently intimated that he wanted to fight Haye, and as a boxer the British fighter is full of admiration for the 41 year-old.

“James Toney is the purest of the pure at boxing,” Haye tells Yahoo! Sports“He is so brilliant at boxing and his skills are so ingrained in him that he’s been an elite level fighter, in shape or not in shape, his skills alone put him on another level as a boxer.”

When it comes to MMA however, Haye, who has been a fan of the sport for a number of years, thinks Toney has bit off more than he can chew.

“Six months of training isn’t going to be enough.  As a UFC fan, I know two or three years wouldn’t be enough. How many times has Toney sprawled in his life? 500? How many leg kicks has he taken in his life? 300? How many Kimura attempts has he defended? 140? Even if he’s done double that amount, he wouldn’t have nearly the experience needed to win a UFC fight.”

Haye also stresses that this is not just a criticism of Toney specifically, but rather that he is speaking from his own experiences.  In fact it was only a couple of years that Haye, who’s father was a Karate teacher, talked about making the transition when his boxing career comes to an end.

“I know from training in MMA myself that the wrestling aspect ruins your punching power,” he reveals.  “After a minute of grappling, your arms, back and shoulders fill with blood and even if you then find space to throw punches, your power is suddenly crap.

“And I hit a lot harder and I’m so much faster than James, and I couldn’t land a punch on fighters when all they wanted to do was take me down to the ground. James is a much more static fighter than I am, and is going to get thrown on his back immediately by Randy. I admire Toney’s spirit and boxing skills. But he’s delusional here.”

Haye’s confident, cocky manner may rub some people up the wrong way but I have to say I liked his insightful and knowledgeable views on this particular issue. It’s one thing hearing it from MMA fighters who are well aware of these factors, but from a mainstream point of view it will hit home with more impact when it comes from another boxer.

In the longer term it will be interesting to see if Haye himself does still have a desire to compete in the sport.  He seems like a much better candidate than Toney to do so.

For one thing he’s still young at just 29 and has indicated that he doesn’t intend to continue boxing beyond a handful more fights.  He has a genuine interest in the sport, and claims to have previous experience in karate, judo and has dabbled in BJJ.  At 6ft 3″, 220lbs and wielding an 80-inch reach,  he could be a very interesting addition at 205lbs if he dedicated himself to MMA training full time as Brock Lesnar did when he made the move from pro-wrestling.

In the mean-time well have to make do with Toney, and he’ll get the chance to prove that boxer’s can successfully compete in MMA when he takes on hall-of-famer Randy Couture at UFC 118 on August 28th.

97 COMMENTS

  1. You sound like a typical mma cheer leader when you write, “…dedicated himself to mma training full time as brock lesnar did when he made the move from pro wrestling.” As if lesnar and pro wrestling can even be compared to Haye and pro boxing.

    The ufc and mma, as a whole, is pure garbage. It’s people like lesnar who prove this fact by being successful in the trash world of mma. Successful after four fights might I add in which lesnar fought nobody of note accept, maybe, mir.

    Toney has already won by entering in to mma and taking on a so-called living mma legend in his first attempt at it. Let me repeat. His FIRST FIGHT IN MMA! Show me where a top pure, P-U-R-E, pure mmartist who would dare attempt something similar, at a similar level of talent, in their first attempt, and with the amount of time that Toney is attempting mma, but in boxing. So unlikely it might as well be impossible. Boxing, from this hypothesis alone, shows that it is by far the more difficult sport which requires more talent and skill to compete in.

    Haye can also criticize Toney all he wants but maybe it’s just because Haye doesn’t possess the testicular fortitude that Toney does so Haye feels the need to look down on Toney’s attempt in order to feel better about himself. If only Haye had the balls of a James Toney he probably would have fought both Klitschko brothers and Povetkin by now. Instead he chooses to talk more than he’s fighting.

    Much love to Lights Out. Good luck, you risk taking, competitive, son of a machine gun.

  2. First off, you say I’m a “typical MMA cheerleader” but I should point out that I’m a fan of both boxing and MMA. I think that needs to be said since your comment that “MMA and the UFC is pure garbage” indicates that you have a completely biased opinion on the subject.

    With that out of the way, on to your other misguided comments. you obviously equate Brock Lesnar only with his pro-wrestling career. What your missing is that before that he was a two-time NCAA All-American, two-time Big Ten Champion, and the 2000 NCAA heavyweight wrestling champion. That’s “real” wrestling – the type you’ll see in the olympic games, not the fake kind he would later do to earn a living.

    So Lesnar came to the sport with one piece of the puzzle already in his arsenal which is countless years of “real” wrestling experience at the highest level, just the same as a Toney or Haye would come with another piece of the puzzle in boxing.

    As has been proven many times in the past wrestling is the best base for a successful MMA fighter, and with his credentials it helped him immensely to reach the level in the sport that he has so quickly. By contrast it’s been proven over the years that a pure boxing background does not equate nearly as well to being a successful MMA fighter. If you take time to develop other aspects of the sport (such as wrestling as one example) then boxing can be a formidable weapon though. As Haye rightly says though, you don’t develop those other aspects of the game in a few months.

    You make out that nobody would dare do what Toney has done. Lesnar fought Mir, a two-time UFC heavyweight champion in only his second fight in the sport. You also seem to have forgotten that he fought and defeated Randy Couture, a multiple time champion and hall-of-famer in only his fourth fight.

    Anderson Silva is a “pure, P-U-R-E pure mmartist” as you put it and he was desperate to fight Roy Jones Jr – and this was back in 2008. You could argue that Jones was past his best – but bear in mind that Toney is going to be fighting a 46 year-old Couture!

    As for Haye – as I mentioned in the article, he was actually way ahead of Toney in saying that he wanted to fight in MMA. Back in 2008, just before he moved up a division he said he wanted to become a champion at heavyweight, then retire from boxing before he was 31 and challenge the No.1 MMA fighter at that time.

    So to sum up: your ill-informed and have posted a by-the-numbers generic argument on the subject of MMA Vs Boxing without really understanding the facts.

  3. To begin with, I said that a pure mmartist has never, and probably never will attempt, what Toney is attempting but in the opposite direction (meaning in the world of boxing) so you citing lesnar heading into mma does not compare since even you admit that a wrestling background transfers a little bit better than a pure boxer. So my point is that boxing requires greater skill and talent to compete in and you would never see a couture, lesnar, ortiz, liddell, velasqquez, or anyone else you can think of, entering boxing at the same level that Toney is entering mma and against the caliber of the mmartist that he is entering against. In his first attempt no less. Couture’s age is also irrelevant since the fact that Toney is fighting couture in couture’s element and Toney himself is 41 and exhibits far more wear and tear than couture. The fact that you don’t acknowledge such facts, is evidence that you are in fact the mma cheer leader that I said before.

    All of this shows that mma, in actuality, is just a haven for wrestlers who don’t know how to fight.

    If you need further proof that mma is an inferior sport, all you need to do is refer to Mercer vs silva. I know you might be tired of boxing fans citing this fight but think about it. An almost 50 yr. old completely destroyed a former ufc heavyweight champ who was 33 yrs. old. Can you even begin to imagine a scenario where a pure mmartist like couture, who is currently around the same age as Mercer was when he fought silvia, entering a boxing ring with virtually no boxing experience, and ko’ing a former 33 yr. old heavyweight boxing champ…like…say…Wladimir Klitschko? So, it’s probably a good thing that all anderson silva did was talk just like haye.

    So, if I’m ill informed, than you are just utterly uninformed. Just another mma band wagoner who has drunk the mma cool-aid and are hailing mmartist as the greatest thing since sliced bread but who are, in fact, crude brawlers/wrestlers/grapplers.

  4. If you’re going to cite Mercer vs Sylvia, then I’ll cite a few fights myself.

    UFC 1, 1993: Royce Gracie vs Art Jimmerson. Gracie was Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Art Jimmerson was all boxing. Once Royce got him to the ground and mounted him, it was all over. He made the boxer look like a total joke. And keep in mind that this was as close to ‘real fighting’ as it came, since the UFC back then only had 1 or 2 rules.

    Dream 11 – Kazushi Sakuraba vs Rubin Williams. Sakuraba is a legendary Japanese wrestler/grappler and Williams is an American boxer. Sakuraba punished Williams with leg kicks, got him to the ground and made him tap from a kimura. The boxer was totally out of his element and humiliated.

    Both of these fights can be watched online. Royce Gracie and Kazushi Sakuraba are not crude brawlers/grapplers; they are the some of the best representatives of their respective martial art. Only someone with incredible ignorance would dismiss all of these great martial arts that are centuries old and equally as effective in REAL FIGHTS as boxing.

  5. Re-read my comment. I said that mma is an inferior sport and mmartist are inferior athletes. Gracie, just like any other top mmartist, whether lesnar, carwin, rua, gsp, would never attempt boxing at the level that Toney is attempting mma. Tell me I’m wrong.

    Gracie can squeeze heads between his legs all he wants but, as an athlete looking for a true challenge, he would never attempt boxing at an elite level. He lacks both the talent and heart to do so. If not he would have by now for far more glory and money than he has ever earned in his life. Toney on the other hand, does not lack the heart and the talent remains to be seen. However, Toney does possess the heart and talent to fight in the most taxing and difficult combat sport. Boxing!!!! You can say that that is only an opinion but the fact that mmartist avoid boxing like the plague, speaks volumes about both their heart and skills as an athlete or lack thereof.

    By the way, all the fights you mentioned, were of boxers entering into a foreign discipline and showing the kind of risk taking competitive spirit that no top mmartist has yet shown. This also speaks volumes of the heart, or lack there of, of mmartist. When are mmartist going to reciprocate and be as daring as boxers and stop using their sports rules as an excuse to keep from challenging themselves????

  6. Fight ‘N’ With Heart: You should probably go back and read my first reply a little more carefully. I told you Anderson Silva calling out for a fight with Roy Jones Jr was comparable to what Toney’s doing in the other direction.

    You seem happy to display your boxing bias as if it’s some kind of badge of honor, but really it just let’s everyone know your narrow minded.

    Your trying to say I have an MMA bias but that’s simply not the case. Again, go and read the article – notice that I state that David Haye could be an interesting fighter to crossover from the boxing realm. If I was completely biased against boxing then why would I have written that?

    As I’ve said before on this site, if this situation was the other way around and Randy Couture was heading into the ring to take on James Toney in a boxing bout then I’d expect Couture to get his ass handed to him since it’s not his sport.

    Why is it so difficult for you to accept that I would think the same fate awaits Toney when he steps into the cage for an MMA fight?

    Also, you cite Mercer KO’ing Sylvia as overwhelming proof that boxing is somehow an inferior sport. The great thing about MMA is that anything can happen, and that night it did. Mercer has made a career out of KO’ing boxers as well, often in the first round, so it wasn’t that big a surprise that if he connected cleanly it could mean lights out for whoever was standing in front of him at the time.

    What you fail to note is that two years prior to that fight Mercer took on Kimbo Slice in an MMA fight. Now just to make it clear, Kimbo is by no stretch of the imagination a great MMA fighter – anything but in fact in my opinion. However he managed to submit Mercer in just 72 seconds.

    Now I know what your going to say – if he hadn’t taken Mercer down then the boxer would have won. Well, consider that a few years prior to that Mercer competed in a couple of kickboxing (another element of MMA) bouts. He emerged with a record of 0-2 and was KO’d by a head kick in 22 seconds in the second of those bouts.

    Does Mercer’s losses in MMA and kickboxing prove that boxing is inferior to those sports? No, it just shows that they are different sports, and just because your good at one, doesn’t mean your automatically going to be good at the other.

    As far as I’m aware that was the whole point of this article, but you seem intent on trying to make it out to be something else.

  7. 1)Silva calling out Jones is nowhere near actually fighting Jones in boxing match. Like I said, it’s probably better that all silva did was talk.

    2)You’re right, I do have a biased toward boxing, just like I have a bias toward a steak and lobster dinner (boxing) as opposed to a bologne sandwich on stale bread (mma).

    3) It is likely that you wrote glowingly about haye simply because he was pandering to the world of mma with his high esteem for those wrestlers/crude brawlers. Had haye had similar views of mma to that of Toney than I would bet you’re opinion of him would have been different regardless of his perceived abilities.

    4)And why would the same fate that awaits Toney not await haye as well? Just like Toney, he would have to play catch up and train in ground defense.

    5)I like how you try and bring credibility and excitement to mma by saying that anything can happen but you fail to see, and understand my argument, when I say that boxing is far more difficult and requires far more skill simply because of the fact that what Mercer did, in his first attempt at mma, with no experience, is so highly unlikely to take place in the world of boxing by a mmartist that any reasonable person would label it as impossible. Honestly, can you imagine a scenario where couture can waltz into boxing, like Mercer did into mma, in his first boxing match, no boxing experience, and completely destroy a credible heavyweight boxer? So, you’re right, anything can happen but then it seems that anything can happen because mma is just a bunch of crude brawlers who often win more due to luck rather than any real display of skill so if you throw, even a washed up, former world class boxer in the mix, he probably, is going to have a greater chance then most but the reverse is impossible and that’s why boxing and boxers are greater.

  8. 6)To answer the latter half of your comment; I never said that the sports weren’t different, I argue that one is far more difficult than the others and if you pay attention to all of the clues and reason your way through, it is highly reasonable what I say.

    One reason – for the sake of more discussion – that boxers are greater competitors, is that it is almost always boxers that make the risk taking competitive leap into other combat sports while those in the said combat sport almost never reciprocate, at a similar competitive level, but in boxing. This behavior alone, whatever the motivation, shows greater competitive heart.

    If you are wondering why I argue this it is because I have to put up with media attention being given, to what I feel, is an inferior product and as a consumer I would rather more boxing coverage as opposed to mma coverage.

  9. 1) It was reported that both Silva and RJJ signed a contract to fight in a boxing bout, but the UFC pulled the plug on it as they don’t allow their fighters to fight for anyone else while their under contract.

    Your 2nd and 3rd points aren’t even worth answering.

    4) If you’d read the article properly you’d see that I mention Haye has been training various aspects of MMA, including the ground game for years. He’s also a lot younger than Toney so he has time on his side if he wants to make a successful transition.

    5) Your argument is flawed on a number of levels. Firstly as I mentioned earlier (at least try and read my answers before replying!) Mercer was actually beaten in a little over a minute in his first MMA bout, before he faced Sylvia.

    Also the fact that your trying to write off MMA on the strength of one fight just shows how weak your argument really is. Various boxers have tried to compete in MMA over the years and failed, but you cling on to one fight as definitive proof.

    Mercer’s win doesn’t prove that boxing requires more skill or is more difficult either. All he did was step forward and throw one punch which KO’d Slyvia. That certainly proves he’s got KO power, and perhaps that Slyvia’s chin isn’t the best, but it’s laughable to suggest that in 10 seconds of action that proves that boxing is more skillful than boxing.

    6) So now your full argument for why boxers are better than MMA fighters is that Ray Mercer once KO’d an MMA fighter, and that boxers are more willing to have a shot at MMA than the other way around.

    Really hard hitting analysis their fella, can’t wait for your next revelation.

    Honestly it seems to me that you just have a chip on your shoulder. I appreciate it must be frustrating to see MMA rise while boxing takes a backseat. As a fan of both sports I’d rather see them both being successful, but it’s not the case right now, and attitudes like yours don’t help.

    Your need to argue that boxers are somehow more talented or skillful than MMA fighters is as pointless as arguing that an apple is better than an orange.

    You are entitled to your opinion but I don’t agree so hopefully we can just draw a line under the matter.

  10. 1) While you try and find reasons for silva not fighting RJJ the fact is that I’m sure if silva wanted badly enough to show to the world his competitive risk taking spirit, along with his boxing prowess, he would have found a way. However, silva chose not to find a way unlike many boxers who although past their prime, find a way to enter and compete.

    2&3)You are really going to look at the level of fighting in the ufc an even suggest that it holds a candle to the exploits of a Mayweather, Pacquiao, Bradley, Alexander, and other current great boxers? And this is just in and around the welter weight division. So, while things can be seen as apple and oranges, it’s more like I said, steak and lobster compared to a bologne sandwich. I also see that you take haye’s word for it that he has trained in mma but you’re skeptical of Toney just because he’s older????

    5) As for Mercer and silvia: What is difficult to understand? Can you, imagine a scenario where an almost 50 year old pure mmartist would be able to waltz into boxing and do, at a similar level of talent, what Mercer did in mma? It’s a simple question. All signs point to absolutely not. Why, because it takes far more years of practice and dedication than mma. I need only point to the fact that it is mma that a pure wrestler with atrocious punching ability can enter mma and win the title after only 3 mma fights and 2 of those 3 against nobodies and a old former great Toney can enter and, in his first fight, take on a so-called mma legend who hasn’t been though 1/4 of the wars that Toney has. So, can you imagine a scenario where either of these scenarios would take place in the opposite direction?

  11. This isn’t a competition for the ultimate athlete; this is a competition for who is the Ultimate Fighter. That being said, there are amazing athletes in the UFC: George St. Pierre, Brock Lesnar, Rashad Evans, just to name a few. I would dare argue that collegiate and olympic wrestlers are better athletes than boxers. You’ve already professed your ignorance to the latter, so just take my word for it.

    You know I’m partial to mma, but I still certainly respect boxing. I have a lot of respect for James Toney for trying this out. The boxing/striking department is critical to mma. However, many have pointed out how the overly technical aspects of boxing do not translate into real fighting. This is about real martial arts competition, with SEVERAL rules of engagement. It all comes down to this: boxing = 1-dimensional, and mma = multi-dimensional. If a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu master or Greco-Roman wrestler beats a more athletic fighter, what does this prove? It’s about fighting.

  12. The bottom line is this: boxing is a dead sport, and the cause of death was suicide. MMA is far more exciting and dynamic sport. Boxers (like Toney) are more than willing to give it a try, but they better be ready for the MANY other effective martial arts out there.

  13. Every fighter can be beat. So, with that said, it is a well schooled boxer who can strike with ruthless accuracy that is always the more deadly and ultimate fighter. Even if lesnar were allowed to kick, grab, hold, elbow or anything else you could think of, do you really think he would have anything more than a slim chance against someone like a prime Mike Tyson or even a David Tua ( I do. No chance)? Did you even see the lesnar carwin fight? lesnar got caught with one minor and poorly thrown uppercut from carwin and lesnar reacted with all of the skill and finesse of a schoolyard bully who can’t fight. What do you think would happen to lesanr if it was a world class heavyweight boxer doing the uppercutting?

    Now we have James ‘Lights Out’ Toney entering the octagon against couture and, to tell you the truth, I’m beginning to feel sorry for couture. This wrestler/beyond mediocre puncher has one chance and one chance only. Grab and hold on for dear life. Many mma cheer leaders like to argue that it’s the other way around and it’s Toney who has only one chance but people who say that are people like you who have drunk the mma cool-aid and have bought into this manufactured fraud filled with glorified wrestlers who can’t fight worth a crap. Toney will show that it is boxers who are the ultimate fighter by destroying a so-called mma legend. In Toney’s first fight no less. FIRST FIGHT IN MMA!!!!

    Simply by doing this Toney is showing that boxers are the ultimate fighter, if not in skill, than definitely in HEART because, after all, heart is a key ingredient when debating who is the ultimate fighter. Show me a mmartist that would do what Toney is doing in mma but in boxing, at a similar level of talent, and within the same amount of time that was given to Toney to do it in mma.

    So, in the heart department, boxing has already won while mmartist remain with their tale tucked between their legs when ever the ‘B’ word is brought up. Tell me I’m wrong.

  14. I’m a big fan of both sports but in reality boxing as a combat art is limited. For example, in a clinch alone, there is nothing else you can do but wait for the ref to break the fight. In mma competition & especially in a street fight, a fighter’s mma skills are going to be far more superior than a pure boxer. Boxers do not train to defend against kicks, takedowns & submissions. The reason why mma was invented is to make a person a more complete fighter, rather than being one dimensional.

    As far as the argument that an mma fighter cannot make a successfull transition from mma to boxing, well, it’s a new sport. The athletes that are competing in mma were pretty much limited to amateur competitions. Boxing as been in existance for god knows how long. Now for the earlier mma fighters who have challenged professional boxers & won, I think that’s far more impressive than a pro boxer coming in to mma & being succesful.

    Despite the shortcomings of both sports, I still enjoy watching both of them. If a fighter wants to challenge themselves & fight in a different discipline, more power to them. I love watching everything from boxing, mma, kyokushin karate, muay thai & just about every combat sport there is. There is always room for everyone.

  15. MMA fighters who have challenged and beat boxers is not at all impressive. It’s not impressive at all because it is almost always the boxer who is asked to enter into the mma world with, often times, no experince and fight the mmartist under the mmartist rules and arena. How is that impressive? However, it is truly impressive when a boxer enters into the mma arena and, depending only on their boxing skills, destroy a mmartist in the mmartist’s own backyard.

    But,as I have said before, boxing is by far the greater sport because it is virtually impossible for a pure mmartist to enter the world of boxing and do what boxers have done, and at a high level of competition, in the world of mma.

    One last question just so you can think about the more deadly fighter. Would you rather fight a prime Iron Mike Tyson in a street fight or randy couture and, if you could choose between the two, who would you prefer fighting with you, against multiple attackers?

    Boxing and boxers will always be the greatest athletes and sport. MMA doesn’t even come close to boxing.

  16. One of the street fights Tyson got involved in he broke his hand. If you’re a one dimensional fighter, you just took away your ability to strike. A pure boxer may not always be successful in a street fight as well. How often is a jab utilized in a street fight? Not very much. MMA fighters do have far more weapons available on hand, they just have to translate it for the streets. A submission translate into a break, dirty boxing is far more suitable & a common street punk usually aren’t skilled enough in takedowns or wrestling. I don’t understand you’re argument about a mma fighter’s win over a boxer not being impressive. Is it because the mma fighter choice to be smart & not box the boxer? That’s the reason why mma was started so a fighter doesn’t have to rely on 1 fighting form. If boxing is truly the closes thing to real combat, than why would anyone worry about entering into an mma ring where there are far less rules than boxing? As far as your comment about a boxer destroying a mma artist, are you referring to Mercer vs Sylvia? Sylvia was a fat hasbeen egomaniac that got what he deserved. That’s what he gets for underestimating a former heavyweight champion. I’m sure you’ve heard that Kimbo choked out Mercer in a matter of seconds, & that he also got knocked silly with 1 headkick by a K1 kickboxer.

    I’m not putting down boxing because boxing is my first love & I’m still an avid boxing fan. And you’re right about that fact that, currently a mma fighter cannot just step into a boxing ring & be just as succesful. Keep in mind that this is a new sport. Each new generation of mma fighters will exceed the skills of the previous generation. So, in the very near future, we will see a mma fighter making an easier transition from mma to boxing. Maybe not if mma purses start to match top boxers.

  17. Tyson may have broke his hand but did you even see the other guys face after only one punch from Tyson? By the way, the punch you’re speaking of was thrown against another professional fighter.

    Is the mma fighter being smarter by not boxing a boxer? No, the mma fighter is avoiding a challenge. The point is that as athletes who engage in combat sports, boxers always seem to be the ones who say, “Yes, I’ll fight you in your own back yard as a challenge not only to you but to challenge myself.” MMA fighters on the other hand would never test themselves like boxers do by entering into another arena. Instead mma fighters hide behind their rules and use the phony argument that they are being smart when, in fact, they are just avoiding the challenge. Remember what James ‘Lights Out’ Toney said, “I coming to ya’ll field because ya’ll too fucken scared to come to my field.”

    Also, as a clear fan of mma, does it make you feel good to say that silvia was fat and a has been? The fact of the matter was that silvia was a former 33 yr. old ufc heavyweight champ while Mercer was almost 50. That means that Mercer was more than a decade older than silvia and Mercer had far more wear and tear than silvia. These facts should have more than even the playing field and don’t forget that they fought under silvia’s rules.

    As for there one day being a mmartist transitioning more easily into boxing, he would first have to start out as a pure boxer and thereby proving my point. Boxing is far more difficult and requires more attention. If someone chooses to try and master a million and things, then they will be mediocre at most of them. I give you mma.

  18. How is a mma fighter avoiding a challenge by not choosing to box? In any conflict, you want to avoid fighting your opponents fight. You have to fight your own strategy. For a mma fighter to simply box, then it’s no longer mma. It’s called mixed martial arts for a reason. All you have is the equivalent of someone fighting with the rest of their limbs tied. In your scenario, it would seem like the boxer is avoiding a challenge by wanting the mma fighter to only box. In a mma arena there a far less rules to abide by compared to boxing. If a boxer is confident in their boxing skills alone, then a mma vs boxing match shouldn’t worry him.

    You call mma mediocre because you’re comparing mma boxing to traditional boxing. A traditional boxing stance doesn’t work in mma because there are too many things to worry about, such as kicks, elbows, knees, throws, grappling. In Vale Tudo events, then there are the headbutts & soccer kicks/stomps that is added. All these things are far more realistic in actual combat than boxing. Being thrown on your back & making the transition from the ground to stand alone, is enough to drain your energy. So in terms of difficulty & requiring more attention, I’m sorry, but mma wins hands down. That’s why boxers have excellent boxing because that’s all they focus on. We can argue all we want about which is best but all we have to do is look at the challenges between mma & boxers. Sure Mercer took out a poorly skilled freak whose only advantage was his size. But the rest shows the limitations boxing has. James Toney will find out the hard way. Although personally, I think Randy Couture is the wrong person to be facing Toney based on recent performances & age. As long as he’s not stupid enough to stand still, he still has a very good chance of taking out Toney.

  19. To answer your first question, if you ask any mma person if they want to be sen as great athletes most, if not all, would say yes. If they say yes, than they should be willing to challenge themselves by doing different things that test them in different ways. But, mmartist choose not to.

    Also, boxers have shown that they will enter mma with nothing but a boxing background. This fact alone shows that boxers are far more daring and courageous than mmartist because mmartist would not attempt the same thing, at the same level, but in boxing.

    And, why do you feel the need, like every other mma fan, to start making excuses and saying things like couture isn’t the man to do the job. All your doing is trying to manufacture an excuse to make yourself feel better should couture lose. These excuses don’t apply in this case at all for a few reasons. 1)Isn’t Toney fighting under couture’s rules? 2)Isn’t Toney entering into mma with no experience? 3) Isn’t couture seen as an mma legend and still capable? 4)Won’t this be a first for Toney when he fights with no shoes in front of an entire ufc audience booing him? Looks like a stacked deck if you ask me. Sounds like couture should do anything but lose. Should Toney win, against such odds, than it will help to prove, not that couture wasn’t the man for the job, but rather, that Toney and boxers are just the greater athlete. Toney is supposed to lose considering everything.

  20. One thing your missing here is that the real reason that Toney is coming into MMA – and this is something he’s admitted himself – is because he can’t get big fights in boxing these days, so he’s a fight in the UFC as an opportunity to make money.

    Beyond that your just sounding like a stuck record here, saying the same things you were a few days ago when I last commented, and still not really listening to what anybody’s telling you.

    Since your not really listening to what we’re telling you, maybe you’ll listen to what the guys you keep talking about have to say about MMA instead:

    James Toney: “I like MMA, I’ve never been a hater, I’m not one of the boxers that’s hating on it. I love the sport and I think it’s good for everybody.”

    Ray Mercer: “”I have to admit, MMA makes boxing look kinda easy.”

  21. Way to cherry pick what your going to quote.

    Mercer, “MMA fighters are scared to fight me.”
    “Stand and fight like a man.”

    Toney, “I’m coming to ya’ll field. The mma field because you’re too fucking scared to come to my field.”
    “randy couture has no balls. He’s ball-less.”
    “He’s (couture) gonna try and hold me like a little girl because he’s scared.”

    Also, if I sound like a stuck record, then it’s only because all of you mma cheer leaders fail mount a decent counter argument. You people are just as good at avoiding the points I make as mmartist are at avoiding boxing. This was the last part of my previous comment. Why don’t you try and argue anything other than what I type here is true.

    And, why do you feel the need, like every other mma fan, to start making excuses and saying things like couture isn’t the man to do the job. All your doing is trying to manufacture an excuse to make yourself feel better should couture lose. These excuses don’t apply in this case at all; for a few reasons. 1)Isn’t Toney fighting under couture’s rules? 2)Isn’t Toney entering into mma with no experience? 3) Isn’t couture seen as an mma legend and still capable? 4)Won’t this be a first for Toney when he fights with no shoes in front of an entire ufc audience booing him? Looks like a stacked deck if you ask me. Sounds like couture should do anything but lose. Should Toney win, against such odds, than it will help to prove, not that couture wasn’t the man for the job, but rather, that Toney and boxers are just the greater athlete. Toney is supposed to lose considering everything.

  22. Seems your pretty good at cherry-picking quotes yourself.

    James Toney Talking About boxers: “Everybody is scared to fight me.”

    James Toney on the Klitschko’s: “they’re scared to death of me”

    James Toney On Bernard Hopkins: “I can’t chase a scaredy-cat”

    You see a pattern here?

    The way I see it every argument you’ve made has been shut down, but just for old times sake I’ll rise to the bait one last time.

    Nobody is making excuses for Couture, just pointing out the facts. Toney’s odds are helped a little by the fact that Couture’s chin at 47 years of age is not what it used to be. He was TKO’d by a glancing blow from Lesnar, knocked down a few times with punches by Nogueira and once by Vera.

    Even so, the odds are still stacked firmly in Couture’s favor, no doubt about that. The facts don’t lie, and over the years it’s been proven countless times that in a striker vs grappler fight in MMA the odds are stacked firmly in the grappler’s favor.

    At the same time it would be foolish for anyone to say that there was absolutely no chance that Toney could win. To not even entertain the possibility would be narrow-minded – kind of like your arguments.

    If Toney does win people like you will claim it proves that boxing is better than MMA, when in reality all it proves is that in this sport anything can happen.

  23. The quotes you cited are quotes aimed at other boxers and Toney’s attempts to try and get them in the ring so you citing them is pointless. We are talking about a boxer versus a mmartist as athletes or, at least, that’s what I’m talking about. I really don’t know how you’re interpreting it. Most likely incorrectly.

    Just citing the facts huh? So, even with all the things I mentioned that favor couture , and there pretty significant, all you can say is, “…narrow minded…” Really, narrow minded? Excuse me for holding professional athletes to a higher standard than, “Anything can happen.” This is the point I’m trying to make. MMA is a lesser sport simply because of the fact that someone with no experience can waltz into the octagon and, at a very high level of competition, in their first fight, have such a chance that even cheer leaders like you have to entertain the possibility that they may emerge victorious.

    However, on the other hand, you have boxing where such a thing being accomplished by a pure mmartist in the world of boxing is so unlikely to take place, that a reasonable person (not a closed minded or narrow minded person) would look at it as so unlikely it might as well be impossible. For this reason alone boxing shows to be the greater sport offering the greater challenge. Really… can you… think of a scenario (fairy tale) where couture could enter boxing and knock out even a rusty and come backing Lennox Lewis? So you can argue the old played out apples an oranges argument but it is pathetic, like I said before, when a so-called one dimensional boxer can waltz into mma with all the odds against them and you still need to entertain the idea that they may win because “anything can happen”. Boxing is not like that mmartist don’t stand a chance at a similar level in boxing. So Toney winning won’t prove anything because nothing can be proven conclusively. All it will do is strengthen my argument and support my case.

  24. Obviously what the Toney quotes prove is that he likes to bump his gums and thinks everybody is scared of him. The fact that you can’t even accept that basic fact is very telling.

    Yes I think you are narrow minded. Your not willing to give MMA fighters an ounce of credit. Even people in your own sport like David Haye and James Toney give the sport it’s dues, but your own insecurities over MMA becoming bigger than boxing have led to you having a blinkered and biased view on the situation.

    You make it sound as if anybody can walk into the cage and take on a top fighter. That’s simply not the case. We’re talking about a boxing legend and multiple-time champion here who already possesses one of the core skills of MMA – boxing, so of course he’s got a chance.

    Your narrow mindedness leads you to believe that boxers are untouchable in their own sport. I disagree. If you put Anderson Silva in the ring with Roy Jones Jr you’d be a fool not to think that Silva would at least have some chance of winning.

    Don’t take my word for it. Here’s what Freddie Roach thinks of Silva’s chances:

    “I think he has a shot. Roy Jones might be, maybe a little bit too much for him, but i’d like to see it.”

    While he’s not 100% convinced that Silva can win against one of the best boxers of his generation, he does think it’s a possibility. Note how he’s not being narrow minded like you and saying that it “might as well be impossible.” I think I’ll take Freddie’s opinion over yours if you don’t mind.

    So that pretty much kills that whole argument about MMA fighter’s not being fit to step into the ring with boxers that you’ve been banging on about since you got here.

  25. Accept the fact that Toney runs his mouth???? Just by typing that it shows that you like trash mma waaaayyyy too much and you’re letting Toney’s trash talk get under your skin too much. Come on dude, it’s gamesmanship and he’s trying to promote the fight by attracting attention to it. It’s strictly business.

    As I typed before, I’m not narrow minded I’m just realistic. I see the signs and I argue my case. The issue is also not that I don’t give mma credit, but that I think, compared to boxing, these glorified wrestlers/grapplers/crude brawlers, are nowhere near as impressive in what they do as compared to what boxers do.

    As for Roach, did you know that he gets paid to train mma fighters (silva is one of them)? Why would Roach badmouth mma fighters or say that they really stand no chance in a boxing match when that would jeopardize a source of income for him? The fact that Roach has a financial interest results in a conflict of interest. It would be like an mma trainer who is training Toney, and getting paid to do so, telling him that he has no chance whatsoever. Which would jive with what most so-called mma experts are saying anyway. Get my point. So you really can’t depend on Roach’s statement because, like I said, there’s a conflict of interest. And you say I’m narrow minded. If I’m narrow minded than you’re just completely blind.

    As for silva, why do you mma cheer leaders like to point to him? The fact is that he didn’t find a way to fight RJJ. However, Toney found a way to get into the octagon. Again, showing the testicular fortitude that exists in boxing but has yet to surface in the mediocre world of mma. When will they reciprocate?

    Remember also, how does something that never took place kill my whole argument? I’ve been putting forth facts and evidence to support my opinion and you put forth the opinion of someone with a conflict of interest about a fight that never happened. Again, if I’m narrow minded, than you’re downright missing a mind.

  26. As you admitted earlier your biased towards boxing and are upset that MMA is currently in the limelight. Your also not willing to take on board anything that I, or any of the other people that have replied have said, and your even discrediting people in your own sport like David Haye and Freddie Roach that have anything positive to say about MMA.

    I think I’ve said all that needs to be said in my previous replies so there’s no real reason for me to keep responding.

    No hard feelings, enjoy the fights.

  27. I simply state facts and evidence that is hard to refute. What? Your going to argue that Roach has no vested interest in not bad mouthing mma? I’m all ears.

    Why would I give any credence to someone like haye? Even boxing sports writers who are in the know, are calling him a coward because haye had a fight with either of the Klitschko brothers and he pulled out of both of them. But, in order to know this you would have to be informed.

    I guess you did say everything you had to say except respond to the last two paragraphs of my previous comment and the entire point of my posts.

  28. You say that Haye is a coward, but what has that got to do with his opinion on how difficult it will be for Toney to transition into MMA?

    The answer is that it’s got nothing to do with it, but hey, that seems to be your M.O. After all, as I said earlier in this discussion, “your full argument for why boxers are better than MMA fighters is that Ray Mercer once KO’d an MMA fighter, and that boxers are more willing to have a shot at MMA than the other way around.”

    Forgive me if I’m not blown away by your revelations.

    Your claim that, “I simply state facts and evidence,” would be a great punchline if it wasn’t for the fact that you really mean it. If you had said, “I simply state half-assed arguments and poorly thought-out theories” then you’d have been a lot closer to the truth.

  29. It has to do with everything. If this clown haye is too much of a coward to take on top competition in his own sport, what right does he have to pass judgment on another persons chances in another sport or how difficult the other sport is? After all, haye isn’t the one taking the risk so he should just shut his mouth instead of criticizing someone, for doing something, that he has yet to show the balls to do in his own damn sport.

    Try and forgive yourself because while I am trying to state a case with facts and opinion, all you do is type things like, “Forgive me if I’m not blown away by your revelations.” Yet you mount no real counter argument. Instead, all you do is type something that amounts to a school kid response like, “You’re stupid and everything you say is stupid!” rather than mount a serious counter argument of your own. So, really, forgive me for not being blown away because, it is you, who really hasn’t addressed any of my facts or opinions with anything substantial.

  30. I can’t wait to hear the excuses from you mma cheer leaders should Toney knock the hell out of couture. Especially considering that Toney is fighting in couture’s realm, under couture’s rules, with no shoes on for the first time in a pro fight, fighting in a pro fight in an octagon for the first time, is old (41 years old), way past his prime, the ufc crowd hates him, he only has one chance at winning, couture has a thousand and one ways of winning, and Toney is not a natural heavyweight(Toney is a pudgy 5’9″).

    Damn, that is a lot of stuff stacked against Toney. Looks like couture should do anything but lose. I wish someone stacked the rules in my favor whenever I fight just like they are stacked for couture; I’d be unbeatable.

    So, mma cheer leaders, what excuses will you be creating for a fighter that really has no excuses to be losing????????

  31. Lol…I don’t doubt he has a chance to win over Randy. I always said that if Dana wanted to make an example of Toney, Randy was the wrong person for that. The heavyweight division is pretty stacked with a lot of talent. I’m excluding Brock because he would be a stationary target & his only chance with anybody is just to lay on top of them. Randy is on his way out. Too many loses by knockout & his age has finally caught with him. The top heavyweight contenders like Cain Velasquez would have been a better choice if they really wanted to school Toney.

  32. Just the number of excuses you have in your last post shows what a ridiculous trash, wannabe sport, mma really is and you don’t even realize it. James Toney has never fought in mma before. The world of mma is completely foreign to him and you still feel the need to manufacture excuses for the biggest names in the ufc should they lose???????? This is their house, the mma house, Toney isn’t supposed to win. If it were the other way around and lesnar or couture were looking to take on a still very capable boxing legend or current boxing champion in a boxing match,in their first fight ever in a pro boxing ring, do you think I’d be looking to explain away a possible victory by lesnar or couture???????? Hell no!!!! I would be saying, as probably you would too, that they are going to be murdered. Instead, what do you do? You type things like: randy is the wrong person. I’m excluding brock he’s too stationary. (brocks also the undisputed ufc heavyweight chump) Randy is on his way out. (So is David Tua and I wouldn’t give couture or lesnar any chance against Tua in a boxing match) Too many knockout losses. He’s too old. MMA is trash. If it weren’t than you wouldn’t be typing the things you are typing.

  33. What you don’t seem to be able to get into your head is that MMA is a multi-faceted sport, of which one component is boxing. That’s why people are giving Toney a chance in this fight, because he is highly skilled in one area of the sport.

    Rest assured though, if Toney was taking on Couture in a single discipline like wrestling or jiu-jitsu, Randy would own him 100% of the time.

  34. Has mma not been couture’s domain over the course of his entire career???? You like to claim that mma is so much more devastating than boxing but now you have a pure boxer entering and you want to start making excuses for a possible victory by Toney? Make up your mma cheer leading minds, is a mmartist so well rounded that a pure boxer with no mma experience doesn’t stand a chance? Or, can the boxer waltz into mma and, with no pro mma experience, kick the mmartist’s ass? Now you want to say bogus crap like, “…if Toney was taking on Couture in a single discipline like wrestling or jiu-jitsu, Randy would own him 100% of the time.” Its funny how you cite the disciplines in which the goal is to hold on for dear life like a sissy. If you’re going to talk about single disciplines, why don’t you throw boxing in the mix? Oh, I know, because the ufc is a haven for lame ass wrestlers and grapplers that’s why you cite only the ass grabbing disciplines. Sub consciously, you realize that this is all that lame ass mmartist’s are really good at. And, even being able to do their ass grabbing, they still might get KTFO! MMA = TRASH

  35. Give yourself a pat on the back, you keep finding new ways to make yourself look stupid.

    “Has mma not been couture’s domain over the course of his entire career????”

    No. He was a successful wrestler (‘real wrestling not pro-wrestling’ before you start), and was an alternate for the Olympics. He transitioned to MMA in his thirties.

    “You like to claim that mma is so much more devastating than boxing”

    I’ve never said that. That’s ok though, it’s just more evidence that your delusional (not that any more evidence was needed, anybody reading your posts would have figured that out long ago.)

    “Now you want to say bogus crap like, “…if Toney was taking on Couture in a single discipline like wrestling or jiu-jitsu, Randy would own him 100% of the time.” Its funny how you cite the disciplines in which the goal is to hold on for dear life like a sissy”

    How is it bogus? Just because you don’t like those disciplines? Great reasoning their champ.

    “If you’re going to talk about single disciplines, why don’t you throw boxing in the mix?”

    I already told you Toney would win if it was a boxing match. That’s your problem (or at least one of them, you’ve got a whole bunch of them by the looks of things), your so bitter, twisted and biased that you don’t listen to what people are telling you.

    The sport of boxing deserves better fans than you, it really does.

  36. Jesus, you need to calm down. You’re going to bust a vein or somethin. How am I making excuses for Randy, when that’s how I felt from the start? That is my opinion. I’ve also said that he’s not going to be a complete chump since he is a high level wrestler & has enough mma experience to be able to defend himself. It’s also a fact that Randy’s past performances haven’t been that great. Any fighter, whether boxing or mma, will experience diminished abilities. Everyone has an expiration. Randy’s time is up. Not an excuse. It’s a fact. You keep forcing the issue of mma fighters inability to excel in boxing. I’m sure majority of the pro mma fighters are aware of their limitations when it comes to just boxing. So what? Mixed martial artist might also get owned if they competed in bjj competitions, muay thai or wrestling. That’s why mma is the great equalizer. I don’t even know why I’m investing this much time. Everyone is going to have their opinion & it’s pretty clear that nothing to is going to convince you otherwise. What gets to me though is that everything to you is absolute. By the way, Tua’s last fights haven’t been that great either. Just in case you missed it, I was a boxing fan first & still am.

  37. @ross
    Oohh! Excusssse me. I meant professional fighting career, not amateur, After all, they are professionals, are they not? And trash mma deserves fans just like you. You know, the kind that by into this mma hype machine filled with bogus lame ass fighters.

    @jkd
    It’s a fact that couture’s done? couture has won his last two fights and one of them against a munch younger fighter. Let me guess, you’re going to try and explain away those victories in order to make couture look vulnerable so that in the event that Toney knocks his ass out it doesn’t look so bad? The point your missing is that it is boxers who are the greatest athlete and the fact that a 42 year old past his prime can just waltz in to mma and fight a name and very capable ass grabber, shows what trash mma really is.

  38. I think ‘fight ‘n’ with a heart’ is one bitter little weirdo with some rather strangely biased opinions. I won’t be engaging with him in any argument not because, as I’ll predict he’ll say, that the intellectual fortitude of his arguments are undeniable but because arguing with someone that doesn’t listen is akin to arguing with oneself which seems rather pointless.

  39. Hey billy bob, why don’t you learn yourself some powerful writing skills? You can’t argue with me because you’re a fad following moronic mma fan. People like you usually have trouble understanding me and my point. Stick to trash mma, it’s right about your level of thinking. Meaning, it’s at the same level of thinking for people who take the WWE seriously, love watching Jerry Springer or are on it, and people who think that because they wear a copout shirt, it makes them tough. Ain’t that a bitch? You morons are so retarded you walk around with a lame as shirt that basically says, “I’m a quitter because I decided to roll around on the ground with another guy and he was able to sweetly grab and twist my scrotum before I could do it to him.” Go drink more of the mma cool-aid idiot.

  40. Just because he won his last fights doesn’t mean I was impressed. You keep insisting that I’m making excuses for Randy in case he loses. Is it just possible that I really do feel that way about Randy’s previous performances? I’ve always admired Couture but was never a real fan of his. No, I’m not missing your point that boxers are the greatest athletes. You’re missing the point that there are competitors that are equally just as great. World class/Olympic wrestlers alone pose a serious threat to boxers. Their training is just as realistic as boxers. Except just like is a real confrontation, fighting is not limited to just stand up. Fighters will always end up in a clinch, there will always be a takedown, someone will always end up on the ground. Grabbing a guy, throwing & submitting or breaking a limb is the furthest thing from being gay. A lot of these tecniques are being used in the police force & the military. These are proven to be effective in real combat. The point your missing, is the boxers do not train for that. By the way, Toney didn’t just waltz in & take out a name fighter. Far as I know, he hasn’t even fought in the mma arena. He made it to the UFC because dumb ass Dana decided to set up a freak match & attempt to humiliate Toney. Which by the way, I don’t take Toney or any ex boxing champ lightly. If Dana wants to humiliate Toney, there are far more capable fighters than Couture.

  41. “Except just like is a real confrontation, fighting is not limited to just stand up.” – jkd

    You like citing practicality. Well, in the real world there exists no rules so your argument is bogus. My point is, if you want to cite how practical mma is because all that it allows you to do, then, in the real world, where does it end? Eye gouging? Testicle twisting? Throat squeezing? Stabbing? Throwing dust in someones eyes? There is no rules in the streets! Often, the winner is the person who is the biggest COWARD because they have no honor code when it comes to fighting and they will do anything in the name of finishing the fight because they were too scared to fight to begin with. So, I guess you’re right, mma is as close to a real world situation.

    “A lot of these tecniques are being used in the police force & the military.” -jkd

    My point exactly. Military personnel and cops often are not elite athletes nor have ever been in a fight in their whole lives yet mma techniques are the techniques they rely on the most because it is something within the grasp of a nobody. On the other hand, boxing, if you want to be even somewhat successful at it, it requires that you be a little more on the talented end of the athletic spectrum. Why do you think lesnar can enter mma, get punched with a mediocre uppercut from carwin, drop his head, turn his back, run away, throw himself on the ground, and finally assume the fetal position rather than fighting back like a man? Because the retarded mma fan base still see lesnar as a bad ass even though lesnar fought like a punk bitch. But hey, lesnar did what he had to do to win right? Just like the scared John Do who looks to end the confrontation by any means necessary because he was to scared to fight in the first place.

  42. lol…Toney’s 1st fight, he has a good chance of winning. After that, he’ll get taken down aggressively by his next opponent & his face ground & pounded to the floor. Other people may disagree with me & actually think this is an easy fight for Couture. I beg to differ & again, I’m not making excuses. It’s my opinion. Sorry, but time to burst your bubble, Toney’s in for a world of hurt if he makes it past old man Couture. You remind of the old school fighters who dissed the Gracies when they first started challenging everyone & realized how limited their 1 dimensional art was. Boxing included. The only absolute I like is in a glass.

  43. Fight N With Heart, you say “Military personnel and cops often are not elite athletes nor have ever been in a fight in their whole lives yet mma techniques are the techniques they rely on the most because it is something within the grasp of a nobody.” Nice way to look at military personnel. The reason they train in mma is because it’s far more practical. In a real fight for you life just plain boxing can only do so much. That’s why you have to train boxing, kicking and grappling.

    You also talk about how no mma fighters have entered boxing. This is a false statement. Guys like Nick Diaz, Vitor Belfort, Marcus Davis and others have fought professional fights. Sure some only have less than a handful but isn’t that more fights that Toney has in mma? You can’t accuse them of not entering another sport now. Also since the two are actually different sports your theory of them having less heart holds little water. Boxing is an aspect of mma but not all of it. So if you have a guy like the aformentioned Royce Gracie that is primarily a grappler or bjj fighter why would he enter boxing? If your main thing is bjj why enter boxing? Instead you have guys who primarily deal in bjj or wrestling entering mma much like Toney who will be primarily a boxer. Do you see what I’m saying?

    Now all this talk of one takes more heart or such and such are more skilled athletes is complete crap. Put Randy couture in a boxing ring with Toney and he’d get ko’d. Put Toney in a wrestling match with Randy or a bjj match with Mir and he’d get beat easily. So who is the better? They’re both better at their chosen sport. They’ve all put the hours, training, sweat and blood in.

  44. Just another quick point is the Ray Mercer comment. Ray Mercer dominated Tim Silvia. This is true. Tim wanted to stand with Ray which was completely foolish. Tim is considered a good striker in mma but that puts him leagues away from a professional boxer. So of course even an out of his prime Mercer knocked him the hell out. Also note Tim was out of his prime at this time in my opinion. He had lost 3 of his last four fights and his only win was to the much smaller Brandon Vera.

    Lets also not forget Rays first round submission loss to Kimbo Slice. Yes, Ray thought that Kimbo would box him but it WAS an mma fight. He should have been ready for anything. Alas he wasn’t and he was taken down and submitted by a guy with very little takedown or submission skills. It shows that boxers are great at boxing but leave much to be desired in grappling.

  45. Ray Mercer: Boxing rec- 36-7, Kickboxing rec- 0-2, MMA rec- 1-1

    That’s a former world champion boxer with 44 wins and 7 losses in professional boxing having a 50/50 record in MMA! LOL

    Eric Butterbean Esch: Boxing rec-77-8, Kickboxing rec- 3-4, MMA rec- 15-7

    Another former champion boxer with MMA losses! Seven losses in MMA with only 23 fights! That’s one loss less than his boxing career that had 89 fights! His MMA losses include a KO and 4 submission! Including a submission loss to the 155lb Genki Sudo! LOL

    It appears that these oh so invincible boxers have weaknesses. From their kickboxing records it appears that if you throw some kicks at them they don’t do so well. Sound on dimensional to anybody? If boxers are superior it seems like they should kill at this so called inferior sport but instead they lose to so called inferior athletes!

  46. Let me correct myself from my last post. I mentioned Ray Mercer had 44 wins and 7 losses. He really had 36 wins and 7 losses. He had 44 fights total.

  47. Some interesting stuff.

    Freddie Roach on mma – “Boxing is a fight, it’s a complicated sport on it’s own, but then you take the ground game into effect also, and you’ve got to learn like five different sports to be good a good MMA fighter”

    When asked which is more difficult to make a transition from boxing to mma or mma to boxing he said “Boxing to mma is more difficult. We don’t know the ground game”

    In an interview Ray Mercer said “in mma you need to be in hella shape” and “mma makes look boxing kinda easy when it comes to the training”.

    It’s interesting to see how different a former world champion and a great boxing trainer have than boxing fans. What is it that boxing fans know that Ray Mercer and Freddie Roach don’t?

  48. Hello everybody. Lets see if I can clear up all of your comments and questions.

    Lets start with smashhaggler. You write, “Nice way to9 look at military personnel.” If you want to suspend common sense in the name of political correctness, than feel free. That’s what’s great about sites like this and this country. The military personnel of which you speak of, fight precisely for the right to voice your opinion especially if it’s unpopular but true so get off your high horse because with that being one of your opening lines, it already shows how uninformed and bias you are.

    On the subject of mmartist’s entering boxing, I know that some have had boxing matches. However, I pointed out that not one of them would dare attempt, in their first boxing match, a fight against with the same credibility and experience in boxing that couture has in mma. I am correct in this observation, am I not?

    You can also say that they have all put the time into their respective discipline and each can beat the other in their respective arena. Well, my point is that Toney is showing more heart because he is entering into an arena where the rules allow for couture to engage Toney in a wrestling match if he is able to force Toney into the wrestling aspect.

    I know too that you like to cite Mercer getting submitted by kimbo but that’s another example of boxers showing far greater courage than a mma person because Mercer went into that match solely with his boxing skills. Some people, I am sure would call that fool hearty, but some can also see it as a risk taking competitive spirit. Then, in only his secon mma fight Mercer destroys silvia in 19 second. I know that people like you enjoy saying that silvia was out of shape and past his prime but lets be honest in the name of common sense. silvia was 33 yers old. Mercer was 48 and had been in far more brutal and taxing battles than silvia. Now, with that said, I would like to ask you if you can imagine a scenario where a pure mmartist who is almost 50 yrs. old, waltz into boxing, and in their first attempt at boxing, destroy a former 33 yr. old boxing champion?

  49. laughingface,

    Just the fact that Butterbean has a winning record in mma shows what garbage the talent level in mma is. Butterbean was a sideshow in boxing and nothing more. Butterbean never fought anyone of consequence in boxing. But, in the world of mma, Butterbean can have a winning record. MMA is trash and so are the fighters.

  50. Fight N Heart, I just thought the military thing was interesting. A comment about how they’ve never been in a fight in their lives and how they’re nobodies. Like you said though you’re entitled to your opinion

    Now let me break down your argument a bit. Your thing is that boxers have more heart or balls because they go right in and fight a sport thats not theirs or against guys like Couture. Ok so boxers start in boxing. Many mma fighters start in bjj or wrestling but they go into mma second just like Toney is doing. So all he is doing really is the same thing that guys like Lesnar, Couture, Koscheck and Werdum have done only his background is boxing. Hell some of these guys (Lesnar) asked for tough opponents right off the bat. Kinda deflates your argument a bit. So they’re guys just like Toney going into mma as a new sport for them.

    Then you argue that Toney has more heart because Couture can wrestle him. Can Toney not punch him? Is Toney not allowed to use his boxing skills? You act as if boxing isn’t part of mma and that Toney won’t be allowed to use it. It’s not just a wrestling match. Striking is as big a part of it as wrestling.

    Now for the Mercer business. Yes Mercer went into the Kimbo match with pretty much strictly boxing skills. Shows great spirit I’ll agree. Lets look at some of the fighers in mma though. There are guys that went into mma with only a bjj background or a wrestling background before learning the rest. I would say that shows just as much spirit since mma isn’t their sport of origin. Again many mma fighters didn’t start as MMA fighers. As for Mercer vs Silvia he clocked him. Even a 50yr old Mercer is a better boxer than Silvia will ever be. Pro boxers at the top level are far better boxers than anybody in the mma community. They’ll always be able to catch them or beat them in boxing match. Back to the age thing though and moving from one sport to another. Could a 50yr old mma guy go into a boxing match against a 33yr old boxing champ and win? Hell no! Now could a 33yr old boxing champ go into a wrestling match against a champ or a bjj champ in just grappling and win? No, and neither could a guy like Silvia. MMA encompasses all of those and that’s what makes it dynamic and risky for every fighter.

    Now do you have any arguments against what David Haye or Freddie Roach said? Interested in your opinion on that.

  51. Deflates my argument? No! wrestling and bjj can never even come close to boxing in terms of the talent, skill, and physical toll on a fighter. Boxing, by far, is the tougher challenge. So you really can’t compare Toney to lesnar or any other ass grabber because in the ufc the rules allow for lesnar and other ass grabbers to do what they do best. Grab and hold in an attempt at avoiding real fighting.

    Also, tough competition in mma is nowhere near tough competition in boxing.

    Of course Toney can punch couture but you conveniently overlook the fact that the rules of the ufc are structured in such a way that it allows for couture to avoid punching while at the same time it really doesn’t allow for Toney to avoid couture’s ass grabbing. Toney is going to just have to deal with couture’s ass grabbing whereas, I’ll repeat, the rules in the ufc allow for couture to do everything in his power to avoid punching with Toney. And so striking is not a big part of it. Not when you have someone like couture who has admitted that he is going to do everything in his power to not have to punch with Toney. Sounds like a punk to me who doesn’t want to test himself. Very much unlike Toney who is showing the real balls.

    You also should stop citing wrestlers and bjj people who enter mma with just those disciplines under their belt because as I have said before, the ufc is basically a arena for wrestlers/grapplers because one did not exist before. So these kind of people entering into a sport that relies heavily on hugging and holding is not at all impressive. To state otherwise would only show that you are overlooking the obvious fact that mmartist’s suck at punching/boxing and grapplers entering a sport with low level punching/boxing plus the option to grab and hold ass much as they choose, is really not at all impressive. The competitors and even supporters of mma admit as much about the level of punching/boxing in mma.

    Then you write about a boxer entering into a wrestling match against a wrestler; well, that’s my point, Toney will be fighting couture in an arena where, if he so chooses – and I think we all know he will – couture can wrestle his ass off. My guess is that Toney will still kick his ass. Toney is taking the greater risk and therefore showing the greater courage and risk taking competitive spirit.

    If you need more evidence that mmartist’s are lesser and athletes in both talent and fortitude when compared to boxers, I point you to lesnar vs carwin and observe how lesnar reacted in the face of one mediocre uppercut. I’m running out of time so I’ll go ahead and answer your other question next time. Just remind me.

  52. If a winning record for Butterbean shows what garbage MMA is does it say the same about pro boxing? 77-8 compared to 15-7? Almost half his MMA fights are losses. He had about a quarter as many fights in MMA as boxing but just one less loss. The fighters he fought in both were jokes but his MMA record is far worse. Do the math. You don’t have a point. The Face is laughing at you! HAHA

  53. A few points, Fight N Heart. First we’ll look past the boxing takes more talent and skill thing since you lack knowledge on the sports. Now as for the “grab assing”. Yes, in mma Couture can wrestle Toney to the ground and cancel out his striking. However that doesn’t mean Toney won’t be able to strike with him at first. This isn’t purely a wrestling match. Toney will still be able to strike while it’s standing. Also Toney can do what he can to defend against takedowns. Yes, the rules allow for Couture to take Toney down but they also allow for Toney to strike and to defend against takedowns. He’ll have to do it just like any other fighter. As for Couture being a punk for wanting to take it to the ground that’s just being smart. I mean would Toney try to take Couture down? Would he try to submit a bjj guy? No, he would do what he does best and try to box. Remember this is mixed martial arts not boxing.

    I’ll a little on that mma is an arena for grapplers to get into but that doesn’t mean strikers don’t do it as well. It’s the only place for wrestlers or bjj guys to go to professionally and really get some money. You have to remember though that many strikers enter mma as well. There are a lot of guys that came in with kickboxing or Muay Thai backgrounds and had to pickup the grappling game.

    Now I was wondering what you thought of the comments made by David Haye, Ray Mercer and Freddie Roach. I think they hold a little more weight than either of us in the boxing or mma community.

  54. @laughingface,

    Of course it doesn’t mean the same thing in boxing. In boxing, Butterbean wasn’t even fighting middle level opposition. On the other hand, in mma, Butterbean did fight mid level opposition. And Butterbean’s record in mma is no less impressive than randy couture’s. Butterbean was till a side show that in boxing that was able to enter mma and have a winning record. The fact that you still choose to defend trash mma has me laughing at you.

  55. @smashhaggler
    Actually, I don’t lack knowledge on the sports. That you don’t see this or choose to argue otherwise just shows that it is you who has not analyzed and studied the sports. Or, you are choosing to be politically correct in saying things along the lines of, “They are both tough and should be respected.”

    I get what you are trying to say about couture and other ass grabbers doing what they do best but you fail to understand that when Toney first entered mentioned entering the ufc, commentators, fans (especially the fans), participants, and the media began degrading him and the sport of boxing but at the same time, conveniently overlooked Toney’s risk taking competitive spirit an mmartist’s lack of risk taking competitive spirit i.e., balls.

    My stance has been that it takes balls for someone like Toney to enter into an entirely different arena and take on a so-called legend to prove a point in his first fight, FIRST FIGHT! After all, isn’t that what fighting is all about? Proving a point? Showing someone else that you have the courage to fight them on their terms and in their yard? couture, however, would never reciprocate because he lacks the heart, skill, talent, and risk taking competitive spirit to do what Toney is doing. So you can say that couture and other grapplers are being smart but what they are really doing is using the ufc rules as an excuse to keep from doing what someone like Toney is doing because they refuse to leave their cradle (octagon). You don’t see Toney avoiding the octagon even though he is a pure boxer but on the mma side, mmartist’s avoid the boxing ring like the plague. This is strong evidence that mmartist’s themselves know that they lack the heart to reciprocate.

  56. Oops. Almost forgot your last question.

    Haye can be taken with a grain a salt because haye may be speaking negatively due to sour grapes because Toney is showing balls by just jumping head first into mma; something that haye has admitted he doesn’t have the nerve to do. Haye however, likes to mask it as having respect for mma so he refuses to take mma so lightly. How can I call into question hayes fortitude? Well, I love boxing and it is common knowledge that haye, with no legitimate reason, pulled out of fights with both of Klitschko brother’s and instead, fought lesser opposition. Those in-the-know say that it’s obvious that haye is ducking the brothers. So, if haye can’t be a risk taker in his own profession, how the hell can he pass judgment on Toney’s risk taking venture into mma and his chances?

    As for Mercer, he is 50 years old. I’ll repeat, 50 YEARS OLD. Don’t you think the fact that Mercer is half a century old has something to do with his softened stance on mma? In the past, Mercer was saying things like boxing is number one and mma fighters were scared to fight him. So, like I said, Mercer’s softened stance has probably more to do with his competitive fire being half a century old.

    Do you relly want to cite Roach as an authority on mma when it is clear that Roach’s expertise is, and always has been, boxing. I think that it is similar to asking a plumber what does he think about rebuilding you car engine.

  57. “And Butterbean’s record in mma is no less impressive than randy couture’s.”

    Lol. I’d love to see you explain how you came to that conclusion Fight ‘N’ With Heart.

  58. @rossc
    You know damn well that some of the people Butterbean fought in mma were seen – at the very least – as mid level opposition by the mma community. Remember, I said some, not all.

    But in Butterbean’s career as a boxer, that sloppy cow never fought anyone that would have been taken serious by even the most casual of boxing fans.

  59. Fight N Heart, on the subject of Butterbean the guy pretty much fought no names in mma just like boxing. He’s fought only a few known people and he lost to them. The best guy he fought was Genki Sudo and he got submitted by him. Not to mention he had well over 200lb on Sudo. Couture has wins over actual good fighters.

    Back to your knowledge of the sports. I would say you do lack knowledge. Sorry but I really doubt from your comments that you know too much about wrestling or bjj. As for being politically correct thats not the case. I do believe that both sports are tough and should be respected but one could make arguments on which has more depth or tougher competition. I won’t argue that the top boxers are elite strikers. They’re far and beyond anything mma has in the boxing arena. However that’s it. It’s all they have. They’re masters of boxing but nothing else. An mma fighter won’t be as good at striking as a top level boxer or even a mid tier boxer but they have to know more than basic striking, kicks and grappling. That’s a lot of different aspects to learn compared to just one. Plus grappling like bjj is very technical.

    Now your point that mma fighters avoid boxing like the plague. I think I’ve already named fighters that have pro boxing fights under their belt. Not all the top level mma fighters do but I think they’re content at just trying to be the best mma fighter they can be. A guy like Couture is going to use his skills to be the best mma fighter he can be and not play into someone elses game. Still I think everybody should give credit to Toney for going into a sport where he can be put at a big disadvantage with grappling. I’ll tip my hat to the guy.

    Freddie Roach has helped train some mma fighters on their striking. We both know he’s a respected trainer in the boxing world. So I think his experience with both would give him a bit of standing on the topic.

  60. “@rossc
    You know damn well that some of the people Butterbean fought in mma were seen – at the very least – as mid level opposition by the mma community. Remember, I said some, not all.”

    For most of his MMA career Butterbean fought lower tier fighters. The only guys that even register on most MMA fans radars that he defeated were already on the downside of their careers.

    That’s not the point though. It shows how little you know of the sport that you said, “Butterbean’s record in mma is no less impressive than randy couture’s.” It seems to me that you’ve just compared their two records and saw Butterbean’s is 15-7-1 and Couture’s is 16-10 and decided that means they were both roughly the same.

    That’s not the case at all. As I just explained Butterbean really fought nobody special, whereas Couture is famous for having spent virtually his entire MMA career fighting for titles. Sure on paper 16-10 doesn’t seem so great, but that’s because he was fighting the best in their prime – like Liddell, Belfort, Ortiz, Rizzo, Barnett, etc.

    The fact that he didn’t enter into the sport until his mid-30’s makes it even more special. You talk about boxers being superior athletes but you’ll be hard pushed to find anyone that’s in better shape than Couture, and he’s 47!

  61. Bernard Hopkins speaking sense on the MMA Vs Boxing argument this week:

    “When you step out into a situation where, against a legend too in his own sport. I believe, and I’ll go on the record, that the best MMA guy or UFC guy go up against the best boxer in the world in their arena, in their arena gets their ass kicked. I don’t care who it is, whether Floyd, Pacquiao, Bernard Hopkins, they get they ass kicked. That is not what we do.”

    Of course although he doesn’t say it the same logic could reply in reverse.

  62. The mma fighters Butterbean fought were on the downside of their careers???? The point is that even though you may be right that the mma fighters were on the downside of their careers, it speaks volumes about trash mma that Butterbean – yea that Butterbean – can still compete with them. Don’t you get it? A joke in boxing (Butterbean) was able to compete with mid level mma guys, in the mma guys home arena, and under the rules of mma. Show me a joke in mma that would be able to compete with a mid level boxer even though the boxer has seen better days. The poor boxer would probably have to be in a wheel chair for even a so-called mma great to be competitive with them in a boxing match.

    coutur’e record is 18-10 and he’s been knocked out 4 times and that passes for an all time great in mma. Also, give me a break, the people you just mentioned as couture’s opponents, were not that all impressive to begin with. All that those people were, were names cleverly marketed and sold to a gullable public and they weren’t that much better than some of the people Butterbean fought.

    couture may have been 30 but he was entering into mma that allows for him to wrestle and hold to his hearts content. That’s not impressive. Now, Toney entering into mma where he has to deal with couture’s nut hugging head is more impressive because the rules in mma allow for couture to avoid Toney’s punching at all cost.

    And mma may not be what the boxer does but what the fact of the matter is is that boxing requires greater skill and talent to be successful.

  63. Failing heart you seem really obsessed with your “nut huggin” and you seem to put a homoerotic twist on everything. Butterbean a former IBA world champion didn’t fight anybody worth knowing in mma except the people that beat him. He fought nobodies! He fought nobodies in your spotless sport of pro boxing and he had 77 wins and 8 losses he fought nobodies in mma and had almost as many losses in far less fights. Face it boxers lose in other arenas. They can box but in real fighting they’re not so great. Again I laugh at you.

  64. laughable brain, you missed the point because you’re a low brow, fad following, mma fan with no critical thinking skills. The point is that it is harder to be a world class boxer than it is to be a glorified ass grabber. You can say that that’s a homoerotic twist but it’s not my fault, just look at mma and some of the workouts. You have guys riding each others backs like queers. machida looked like he was fisting rua in their second match. Face it dude, mma is for punk ass wrestlers and grappplers who don’t have the heart to be real fighters like boxers.

    It will always be the boxer who has more balls and talent. Why do you think it is always the boxer who enters mma at a high level and it is never the other way around? Because mma queers suck ass. They use their gay ass mma rules to hide behind and never take the risk that a Toney is taking and at a similar level in boxing. But, you have a joke like Butterbean who shows more heart than a punk ass mma queer and enters the arena of mma and competes. Win or lose. MMA queers won’t even attempt boxing because they know they lack the skill, talent, and balls to do so. So, remember, mma queers aren’t being well rounded and smart, they’re being punk bitches.

    Toney and even Butterbean could have used the excuse that mma is an entirely different sport and not have entered mma but instead, they found a way to enter and fight which is more than I could say for any queer in mma. Isn’t it sad that BUTTERBEAN has more balls than all of the top ass grabbers combined?

  65. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion Fight ‘N’ With heart, but let’s keep this on topic. If your going to start heading down the infantile “MMA is for queers” route then I’ll take that as a sign you’ve completely run out of reasons for your original argument and will be forced to ban you.

    Why not respond to the Bernard Hopkins quote I posted instead?

  66. Lemme crush this argument a bit. I’m an mma fan and a boxing fan! Whoa hold the phone everybody a guy that likes both sports! I grew up with my dad replaying fights like The War (Hearns vs Hagler). I grew up with a boxer named Marv after Marvelous Marvin Hagler and a pitbull named Hearns after The Hitman. I also started watching the early UFCs rooting for my fellow Michigan guy Dan Severn. Since then I’ve been to both UFC events, Pride events and pro boxing fights. I’ve met Frank Mir, Randy Couture, Shane Mosley, Kenny Florian, Joe Stevenson, Mark Coleman, Tito Ortiz, Wanderlei Silva and numerous others. I was a Mayweather vs Baldomir and I was at Corrales vs Casamayor(Corrales 2nd to last fight I believe). Hell I met Grey Maynard and Josh Koscheck when they were still college wrestlers. I’m not what I’d call a very biased person on this subject.

    Now lets get down to it. BOXING! Pro boxing is a great and talented sport. Sadly it’s had some poor representation and unscrupulous individuals involved in it. Boxers are great athletes. Toney and Mayweather are some of my favorites. Both hail from my home city. Gotta support em. Pro boxers are the best at exactly that… BOXING. Their boxing is at another level as compared to lower level boxing or mma. This is something mma fans have to face. What boxing fans have to face is that boxing isnt’ the only aspect of fighting. Kicks, elbows, knees, takedowns and submissions are all parts of fighting. Most boxing fans don’t know this aspect and don’t like it so they meet it with ridicule.

    MMA fighters are kind of a jack of all trades. They have to know at least basic boxing, kickboxing, takedowns, takedown defense, submissions and submission defense. It takes a lot of training to get that well rounded. That takes a certain amount of skill, dedication and training no matter what you think

    I look at it like this. Boxing is like a steak knife. It will cut some steak up no problem. Very specialized and the best at what it does. MMA is more like a Swiss Army knife. It can cut but it won’t go through a steak the same just as a steak knife won’t open a bottle or pick you’re teeth. In boxing the best of mma would get knocked out against top level boxers. That’s a fact. The thing is theres so much more to that in fighting. That’s what we have to understand. MMA and boxing aren’t the same thing. A boxer might be able to KO a wrestler but a wrestler might be able to take him down and ground and pound him. That makes who ever wins that match the better fighter not just the better wrestler or boxer.

    People need to stop getting so fearful and ignorant. Stop with the queer comments and some of the comments about boxing as well. Fighters in both sports are starting to give each other credit because they know in each others respective fields they might not be the top dog anymore.

    Any fight where someone is going to elbow you, hit you with a 4oz glove, knew you or possibly break your arm takes heart. Any fight where you’re against one of the best boxers in the world takes heart. Both of these are facts. Time to stop with the “uh uh mines better” or the “uh uh your’s is gay”. Two different sports with different rules and different skill sets.

    We can discuss more later cuz I’m kinda drunk and soon I’ll start to really mess up my words.

  67. My argument is that it takes more talent, skill, and heart to be a boxer as opposed to a glorified street fighter. Because boxing requires the greater athlete, and fighting heart, it will always attract a different breed of man. Men like Toney, Ray Mercer, and even Evander Holyfield who asked White if he could enter the octagon.

    Toney, Mercer, and even Butterbean – yes, that Bean – all could have used the same excuse that ass grabbers (mmartist’s) use to avoid the boxing ring and use it to stay out of the octagon. You know the excuse, “They’re entirely different and mmartist are being smart by being well rounded and so on.” However, boxers are a different and more courageous breed of fighter and that’s why they take risks and chances that a punk ass mmartist would never take.

    If mmartist’s are so well rounded, when are they going to step up and take on a boxer and fight the boxer in his realm? Why is it always the boxer who makes the jump, at a high level, and mmartist continue to hide behind their rules while the boxer does no such hiding. Since boxers are so-called one dimensional, I don’t think anyone would blame them if they used the apples and oranges argument in order to avoid the octagon but many have chosen not to hide behind the argument while ass grabbers continue to hide.

    So, you can say to respect both sports because they are different but I say that one has an inferior athlete in both skill and heart.

  68. “Why is it always the boxer who makes the jump”

    It’s got nothing to do with having more heart as you seem to think. It’s because boxing is in bad shape and there’s money to be made in MMA.

    Both Toney and his manager have already admitted that he’s in it because it’s a decent pay day and he couldn’t get any decent fights in his own sport. It was much the same way with Mercer.

  69. I think that for the most part top level boxers are more natural athletes than most mma guys. That actually takes away from your more heart argument though. Who has more heart? A guy that is naturally gifted or a guy who has to train his ass off to get their? I’m not saying boxers don’t train their asses off because they do but guys like Mayweather or Roy Jones are also naturally gifted athletes. Some mma guys aren’t that naturally gifted. They have everything they’ve got purely off their dedication.

    I disagree that boxing takes more skill. Top level boxers are far more talented and more skilled in boxing than anybody in mma. They’re more crisp and technically sound. However you have to remember the other aspects of mma. You have to remember that kick boxing has it’s own techniques that differ from regular boxing. You have to add leg kicks and defenses against that. Then you add in the takedowns and defenses. You don’t just charge a guy and get a takedown it’s measured, set up and performed with proper timing and technique. Then you add the ground game aspect which is really technical. You have so many transitions, counters, submissions and defenses against submissions it’s very technical. If you don’t have something exactly right it won’t work or you could be countered and there are counters to counters. The amount of stuff in the ground game is vast.

    You make a point that boxers go into mma so they have more heart. What about kickboxers that entered mma? They were orignally just strikers with no grappling. Plus you have to remember that there ARE mma fighters who have fought in professional boxing. Take Nick Diaz for example he’s a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu but he entered a pro boxing match. That’s just one example. As for many others I think they don’t do it because it’s not their cup of tea. Frank Mir is a Jiu-Jitsu guy and Randy Couture is a wrestler. They use their skills to be good mma fighters but they don’t match up so well when you take away their game. They’re just sticking to what wins them fights.

  70. @rossc

    At the end of the day the boxer is is still heading into the octagon, correct?

    And since it’s all about the money, shouldn’t there be at least one mmartist’s that is smart enough to recognize that they can use their name and get paid for one fight in boxing, 10x or even 20x, what they get paid in the ufc or other mma organizations?

    But mmartist’s choose to get paid less, correct? Well, I can chalk this up to one thing and one thing only. The mmartist is an inferior athlete and he knows it.

  71. @ serial crusher

    You are beginning to see the light by recognizing that there indeed, exists greater natural talent in boxing than in mma. Congratulations.

    As for the kick boxers, they too are inferior. Why don’t you take a look at ray cefo, sparring partner of randy medio’cure’ couture, and k-1 veteran. ray cefo started out as a boxer and then chose kick boxing instead after he started getting his ass handed to him by journeyman. Kick boxing is for those who can’t hack it in boxing. ray cefo is a perfect example.

    The mma fighters you speak of never fought at the level of boxing that Toney, Mercer, or even Butterbean – yes, that Butterbean – fought in mma. nick diaz fighting in one boxing match doesn’t qualify as an mma fighter making the jump to boxing. Do you really think that the one fight nick diaz had in boxing can even compare to the first fight Toney will have in mma? You are right when you say that boxing is not the cup of tea of mmartist. In fact, it’s not the cup of tea of a lot of people because it’s just too difficult of a sport. After all, why stand and punch and avoid punches by depending solely on your reflexes, when you can just learn to grab and hold?

    Finally. They’re just sticking to what wins them fights? You see, mmartist’s do lack heart because the real warrior like Toney and Mercer, fight the fight that is the hardest and that they may lose. This means that they may sometimes have to venture out of their comfort zone to fight and put themselves at serious risk of losing. But, that’s the kind of fighter that boxing breeds. In mma, the so-called fighters choose to hide behind their rules and use them as an excuse to remain out of a boxing ring while boxers, as I have said before, do no such hiding.

    There’s no getting around it, boxers are just the more courageous athlete.

  72. As I stated Nick Diaz is one example of numerous mma fighters to have pro boxing records. Do you deny he would be out of his comfort zone without him being able to grapple? Of course an mma fighter with a background in grappling isn’t going to go right into a high level boxing match. It just wouldn’t make sense. Toney’s transition is different though. A good grappler won’t out strike a high level boxer but a high level boxer still has a chance of knocking a guy out in mma. That’s what this matchup really comes down to. Can a great boxer knock a great grappler out before he gets taken down?

    As for mma fighters being “so called fighters” they truly are fighters they’re just not boxers. They’re int he business of punching, kneeing, elbowing and choking people. The problem many purely boxing fans have is that they only see boxing as fighting which in reality it’s only a limited form of fighting.

    Sticking to what wins them fights isn’t lacking heart it’s just knowing where your skills are at. Toney is showing courage by going into a fight where he’s at a disadvantage. Really though I wouldn’t say a guy like Couture lacks heart or courage either. He’s stepping into a ring with one of the best boxers around. Even though he can take Toney down that still takes some sack.

    So like I said mma fighters don’t hide from boxing because many of them have tried a few fights. They’re just not going to go far in boxing with their limited striking skills. I wouldn’t expect a boxer to go far in a wrestling event or a Jiu-Jitsu tournament either. This fight comes down to can great a great boxer with limited grappling beat a great wrestler with limited boxing? People always have to get so defensive and turn it into “oh this guy sucks or this sport sucks” or some argument of which is better.

  73. @ serial crusher

    In your first paragraph, you, in your own words, show that boxing is the superior sport by basically typing that a boxer has a real chance of winning in the octagon at a high level while a mmartist’s chance in the opposite direction and at a similar talent level, is so unlikely, it mite as well be stated as not being possible. This kind of statement alone shows that boxers are the superior athlete.

    As far as couture’s sack is concerned, couture is just not even close to having the same kind of balls as Toney. Fighters are in the business of picking fights. Taht’s what Toney is doing. Toney doesn’t care if he has to exit his home arena and fight in another. Toney really understands his role as a fighter. couture is a chump because he hides behind his and doesn’t pick fights. Yet, he wants to call himself a warrior. Win or lose, Toney is the only real warrior for now.

    And you’re right when you say that a boxer mite not be able to go far in a purely wrestling event but you fail to realize that it is almost always the boxer who is competitive enough and enough of a warrior that he will take up a challenge and fight the wrestler under the wrestlers conditions but the wrestler won’t reciprocate. This make the wrestler, and rightfully so, look like a coward.

    Lastly, I argue what I argue, not merely because I’m a boxing fan, but because of the evidence that points me in the direction of the opinion I have of mmartist. Be honest with yourself, the evidence id their that supports the theory that, as fighters, mmartist avoid doing what boxers do. The mmartist is always the one to offer a challenge on their terms but the mmartist will not take up a chellenge on the boxers terms.

  74. “Toney really understands his role as a fighter. couture is a chump because he hides behind his and doesn’t pick fights. Yet, he wants to call himself a warrior. Win or lose”

    Complete nonsense. Couture, at the age of 34 and with a young family to provide for, decided to take part in the UFC which was just a small time show with a violent reputation at the time. That takes balls.

    He’s fought all the best fighters the UFC has to offer since then, and even in the last few years in his late 40’s he’s still stated his desire to fight the best of the best, from Anderson Silva to Fedor Emelianenko.

    The fact that you appear to be unaware of this, and earlier were trying to compare his record to Butterbean’s is just yet another reason why nobody is going to take your opinions seriously.

  75. I wouldn’t say it’s a superior sport at all. It’s just how the styles are. MMA is a combination of the combat sports. A boxer will always have a chance of knocking someone out. Those are just the facts. Grapplers are great at neutralizing someones striking but theres always a punchers chance. Get caught with a big one and you’re going down. It’s not a superior sport though because it doesn’t always happen that way. If a boxer gets taken down he has nothing. I don’t think you could say either one is a superior sport you could just say who is superior at what. Top level pro boxers are far superior with their strikes but their grappling is nonexistent. MMA/grapper guy vs good boxer in a boxing match= boxer winning. MMA/grappler guy vs boxer in mma match = toss up but most would go with the mma guy. Grappler vs boxer in a wrestling or Jiu-Jitsu= grappler winning. It’s about styles and how things pan out in individual fights. Toney would kill Couture in a boxing match. In a wrestling match Couture would wipe the mat with Toney. In mma Toney might land a KO punch or Couture might take him down and end the fight there. Only time will tell.

  76. @rossc

    That takes balls???? Give me a break! couture chose that direction bevause he knew it was filled, and still is, with a bunch of mediocre ass clowns. Why would couture enter boxing which has far superior athletes anbd the history to back it up, when he could go into the mediocre freak show of mma?

    The best that the ufc has to offer???? That isn’t saying very much. It’s still a place where a former WWE wrestler can enter, have four fights, and be called one of the best. ufc’s a damn joke, marketed very well, and sold to the dim wits of the world who believe in such nonsense as lesnar being great. Until you see what the world of mma truly is, I can’t take you serious.

  77. @serial crusher
    Again, Toney has the greater heart and warrior spirit because he doesn’t hide behind the rules of boxing and use them to stay out of the octagon. couture does use his rules and discipline to stay out of boxing by saying he doesn’t train in boxing. Toney could just as easily said the same thing in regards to entering the octagon but he did not.

    You also need to see that, in mma, it is structured so that Toney really can’t avoid couture’s ass grabbing but couture can do everything in his power to wrestle and avoid Toney’s boxing. This fact still didn’t stop Toney, which shows real competitive spirit and courage.

    Did you also know that about 7 years ago Toneys boxing promoter tried to set up a boxing match between Toney and tito ortiz? Isn’t it a shocker that tito and his people passed on the offer????

    So, let’s see: Mercer knocks out silvia, in mma
    Toney is going to fight couture, in mma
    silvia finds a way to not fight Jones
    in boxing
    couture won’t even entertain the idea
    of fighting a boxing great in a boxing
    match

    Do you see a pattern when the very top of each sport is concerned? MMA fighters fight mma because they don’t have the skill, talent, and heart to be like their boxing counterparts.

  78. @ Fight n heart

    You keep mentioning boxers that have entered mma and how no mma fighters will enter boxing. Yet other posters have posted mma fighters that have entered boxing matches before. Again guys like Pat Miletich or Jens Pulver have fought pro fights before. Top level fights? No, but they’re mainly grapplers and their striking isn’t near good enough to put them on that level. Still they entered a boxing ring to only box. Why do mma fighters fight in mma? Because they’re mma fighters and not boxers. Most have a grappling background and it transitions into mma better than boxing. How well you can do an armbar means nothing if you can’t use it. MMA is where they can showcase their talents.

    Now lets get into Toney vs Couture. The rules are structured to where Couture can wrestle Toney. In boxing rules he can’t do that at all. Under the rules though Toney can still box while it’s standing. Toney is allowed to try to keep it on his feet and box while Couture is allowed to try to take it to the ground. That’s why it’s MIXED MARTIAL ARTS and not just boxing or wrestling. It seems like some people can’t get that through their heads. As for your consistent use of the “ass grabbing” comment Toney himself has been practicing “ass grabbing” with wrestlers. Wonder why that is. I doubt if he gets taken down he’ll be thinking of ass grabbing but more likely he’ll be worried about avoiding punches, elbows and submissions from the bottom.

    On the subject of Lesnar the guy does have very few fights and he is considered one of the top heavyweights. The reason isn’t because he was a WWE star. He’s a huge guy with freakish athleticism for that size and he was an NCAA champion wrestler. He’s probably a better wrestler than anybody in the division. So a guy that big and strong taking someone down and imposing his will on them is no joke. Honestly if Toney got into the cage with him Lesnar would probably steam roll him. He’s no joke…though he needs to learn some striking.

  79. No matter which side of the argument you’re on I’m sure you’ll all get a kick out of reading what some of the great and good of the boxing world are predicting will happen in the Toney Vs Couture fight on Saturday night.

    Read their predictions here

  80. The irony is that just a day before on Inside MMA he slagged off Shane Carwin for tapping to an arm triangle against Brock Lesnar, saying that real men fight to the death.

  81. @Fight n heart, you should understand that boxing is part of mma , so any boxer have a chance wining a mma match. An mma fight begins standing, which is familiar for boxers, so if a mma fighter with grappling background go to the ring he is taking more risk than your “brave” boxer who only risk getting choked or caught in an arm triangle. And please stop talking about mercer VS tym silvia, a fight that nobody watched since it was in some obscure promotion, and BTW sylvia was pretty stupid for trying to stand with mercer, we all agree that boxers have more skills in striking. If sylvia was going for the takedown, mercer would have no chance to punch him.

    And why do you want to see couture VS toney in a boxing match? It makes as much sense as toney VS couture in a greco-roman wrestling …
    and saying that mma fighters don’t have the courage to go to other sports is pretty stupid. Most mma guys have background in other sports. You obviously don’t know anything about japanese mma. Fighters step in the K-1 ring all the time. Alistair Overeem, a mixed martial artist went to k-1 and knocked badr hari, the tyson of kickboxing in a kickboxing fight in k-1, the largest kickboxing promotion in the world. Correct me if i am wrong, but i don’t recall any boxing guy knocking a world champion kick boxer in a kick boxing match..

  82. When a boxer steps in a mma ring, he brings all his weapons. When a mma fighter steps into a boxing ring, he’s only allowed to bring his punching skills & is not allowed to use anything else. MMA never claimed they are the best boxers…they are however a more complete FIGHTER…big difference. Boxing vs mma doesn’t make sense. Couture would get owned in boxing but that doesn’t make him less of a fighter. It just doesn’t make sense.

  83. “At least MMA guys got guts and they will get in a cage with me. The boxing guys are all talk and no walk.”

    That quote is from James Toney in his first interview since losing to Couture.

  84. Fight N With Heart:

    I’m so tired of your whiney “mercer fought…” blah blah blah. Your arguments are confused and inconsistent and at the end of it all James Toney got beat in round 1.

    Before you come back and say anything, please respond to James Toney’s quote that Rossc has included.
    “At least MMA guys got guts and they will get in a cage with me. The boxing guys are all talk and no walk.”

  85. Toney didn’t have an answer to Couture’s ground game. I kinda feel bad for the guy but he talked a lot of shit and this is what happened. Still have to respect him for getting in the ring though. The boxing-only fans that can’t deal with anything new are still scrambling for answers and insults.

  86. Fight ‘N’ With heart is a complete, and utter joke. None of his logic makes sense, and it’s obvious that he’s a mixed martial arts hater.

    Toney was brave? More like fat and broke.

    Get a reality check, Toney just did, take a note out of his book son, you’re making a fool out of yourself.

  87. Fight N With Heart – please come back to the Fight Of The Night – David Haye comments section – you seem to have gone awfully quiet after James Toney lost in round 1. Strange you should go so quiet though considering your freakish obsession with disrespecting MMA. Your whole argument is based on no MMA fighters wanting to go into pure boxing (which isn’t true.) You may argue that no top class MMA fighter would last a round with a top pro boxer – maybe not, but, as has now been proven, a pure boxer couldn’t do it either. And please don’t resort back to that old argument of Ray Mercer that you wheel out every time – Ray Mercer, won against Silvia but he also lost in the first round against Kimbo Slice who isn’t ranked highly in either MMA or boxing which shows that he got a lucky punch which can happen in Kickboxing / MMA / boxing / Thai boxing etc etc. If you need an education on other sports where there are surprise outcomes I am more than happy to give them to you but what I won’t do is base an entire argument on any one of those upset outcomes I’ll just treat them as they are.

    http://www.sportingo.com/all-sports/a9754_top-ten-biggest-sporting-upsets-all-time
    http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/biggest-sports-upsets.asp

    Anyway, in case you forget, considering how quiet you’ve become, here’s a few of your great comments.

    “All of this shows that mma, in actuality, is just a haven for wrestlers who don’t know how to fight.”

    “Re-read my comment. I said that mma is an inferior sport and mmartist are inferior athletes.”

    and the best one…

    “Now we have James ‘Lights Out’ Toney entering the octagon against couture and, to tell you the truth, I’m beginning to feel sorry for couture. This wrestler/beyond mediocre puncher has one chance and one chance only. Grab and hold on for dear life. Many mma cheer leaders like to argue that it’s the other way around and it’s Toney who has only one chance but people who say that are people like you who have drunk the mma cool-aid and have bought into this manufactured fraud filled with glorified wrestlers who can’t fight worth a crap. Toney will show that it is boxers who are the ultimate fighter by destroying a so-called mma legend. In Toney’s first fight no less. FIRST FIGHT IN MMA!!!!”

    I am both a boxing and MMA fan so was genuinely interested to see what would happen… and the outcome was as I suspected. I don’t think anyone here would suspect that Couture would win in a pure boxing match against Toney – but then no has said he would. That doesn’t make your argument any stronger or ours any weaker.

    However, you, Mr Fight N With Heart, were so blinded by your own small minded, inconsistent, nonsensical arguments have made a tit of yourself.

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